Thursday 8 January 2009

Out of Body Experience




An out-of-body experience is defined as the experience in which a person who is awake sees his or her own body from a location outside the physical body.

OBEs have been reported in clinical conditions where brain function is compromised, such as stroke, epilepsy and drug abuse. They have also been reported in association with traumatic experiences such as car accidents. Around one in ten people claim to have had an OBE at some time in their lives.

OBEs have fascinated mankind for millennia. Their existence has raised fundamental questions about the relationship between human consciousness and the body, and has been much discussed in theology, philosophy and psychology. Although out-of-body experiences have been reported in a number of clinical conditions, the neuro-scientific basis of this phenomenon remains unclear.

Dr Henrik Ehrsson, a neuroscientist working at the Institute of Neurology University College London (UCL) has devised the first experimental method to induce an out-of-body experience in healthy participants. In a paper published in Science, he outlines the unique method by which the illusion is created and the implications of its discovery.

The set-up of the illusion is as follows: the study participant sits in a chair wearing a pair of head-mounted video displays. These have two small screens over each eye, which show a live film recorded by two video cameras placed beside each other two metres behind the participant's head. The image from the left video camera is presented on the left-eye display and the image from the right camera on the right-eye display. The participant sees these as one 'stereoscopic' (3D) image, so they see their own back displayed from the perspective of someone sitting behind them.

The researcher then stands just beside the participant (in their view) and uses two plastic rods to simultaneously touch the participant's actual chest out-of-view and the chest of the illusory body, moving this second rod towards where the illusory chest would be located, just below the camera's view.

The participants confirmed that they had experienced sitting behind their physical body and looking at it from that location. Dr Ehrsson said: "This was a bizarre, fascinating experience for the participants - it felt absolutely real for them and was not scary. Many of them giggled and said 'Wow, this is so weird!'".

"The invention of this illusion is important because it reveals the basic mechanism that produces the feeling of being inside the physical body. This represents a significant advance because the experience of one's own body as the centre of awareness is a fundamental aspect of self-consciousness."

Discovering this means of inducing an OBE could also have industrial applications. Dr Ehrsson explains:

"This is essentially a means of projecting yourself, a form of teleportation. If we can project people into a virtual character, so they feel and respond as if they were really in a virtual version of themselves, just imagine the implications. The experience of playing video games could reach a whole new level, but it could go much beyond that. For example, a surgeon could perform remote surgery, by controlling their virtual self from a different location."

To test the illusion further and provide objective evidence, Dr Ehrsson then performed an additional experiment to measure the participants' physiological response - specifically the level of perspiration on the skin - in a scenario where they felt the illusory body was threatened. Their bodily response strongly indicated that they thought the threat was real.

The creation of this perceptual illusion stems from an idea Dr Ehrsson had as a medical student, when he wondered what would happen to the 'self' if you could effectively move your eyes to another part of the room, just a few metres away, so you could observe yourself from an outside perspective. Would the self 'follow' the eyes or stay in the body"

The illusion is different from anything published previously. It is the first to involve a change in the perceived location of the self, relative to the physical body. It is also different from any virtual reality set-up because it examines what happens when you look at yourself, and there is also multisensory information that triggers the illusion. There has been no way of inducing an OBE in healthy people before, apart from unsubstantiated reports in occult literature. It's a very exciting development, and has implications for a range of disciplines from neuroscience to theology.

Article: 'The experimental induction of out-of-body experiences' published in the advance online edition of Science on Thursday 23rd August.
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Non-Critical String Theory Formulation of Microtubule Dynamics and Quantum Aspects of Brain Function arxiv hep-ph/9505401v3
Beyond Virtual Reality: "Out of Body Experiences" @ The Daily Galaxy
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44 comments:

Winnie said...

I was thinking that it would be a coping mechanism.

"This is essentially a means of projecting yourself, a form of teleportation. If we can project people into a virtual character, so they feel and respond as if they were really in a virtual version of themselves, just imagine the implications"

Of course I will relate this to birth.
From some mother's perspectives.
Not a total OBE....birth can be a very traumatic experience...
Different..but very similar to what is described here

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Winnie, similar but inverse
I hear sometimes the fathers
faint from the excrusiating symptomatic pain from sharing the experience of giving birth.

But I'm not just into virtual OBEs, with industry wide potential. I'm more into chemically (gas) induced out of body experiences, where people can see what's going on from outside their body without visual or video aids.

Deb said...

Just as those who had an almost death experience, where they say they see that light at the end of the tunnel? Some say it's the brain manifesting those images, due to trauma, and others really believe that they're close to going to "heaven", or going into the afterlife.

Very interesting!

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Deb, sweet honey bunch
long time no see, so you got the old photo on the profile again.
Hard to talk of out of body experiences when you are about.
But yeah this test is sort of virtual reality induced technology.
I'm more into the gas induced and meditative variety - where the mind is detached from the body. Of course there are no conclusive results, but the experiments are sure fun. Any type of experience with you would be 'out of this world' - but an out of body experience, now that would be a wow!

stardad9591 said...

I have epilepsy and have never experienced any OBE during any of my seizures.

Not even after having two heart attacks and open heart surgery two years ago.

Not even after experimenting with various "chemicals" years ago in my misspent youth.

*sigh* Too entrenched in this world I guess.

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Bryan,
not everyone who has epilepsy, or has suffered a stroke or being in a car crash, or 'abused' recreational drugs has experienced out of body experiences.

However there used to be an alarming number of people used to experience it under (gas) general anaesthetic. This unnerved some surgeons - when patients would awake claiming to have hovered over the operating theatre, and able to describe the operation.
Thus general anaesthetics were changed, until the incidence was eliminated.

However I must repeat this particular trial is about virtual or artificial OBE induced with video and visual aids - with views to employing it in industry, and not to explore the likelihood of real out of body experiences.

However Brian, you do jokingly introduce a serious and interesting point, some people are more entrenched in this world, and some people are more 'air' brained or less attached to their body and life on earth. Just like some people have more imagination and can write, write fiction and.or science fiction, whereas others are more mechanically minded, or earthbound, and can only deal with what they perceive as facts or reality - no matter how relative these may be.

Unknown said...

I would love to be a subject in this experiment. Sometimes when I'm talking it's like a part of me is divorced from myself and thinking 'what crap is she saying' but I've never had a physical OBE. A friend of ours claimed she had it once but being cruel teenagers that we were at that time we just said 'yeah right'

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Random,
I would have thought you'd make an ideal candidate for this experiment
Both the virtual OBE, and the more dramatic gas induced one.
You've never been put to sleep or had a general anaesthetic, it's dreamy you are floating around in space, literally hovering in the room. Spooky? not at all
All in the Mind? well you tell me if you are looking at yourself below as if you were in a dream, or looking thru a viseo machine (without any visual aids) you tell me. lol

Anonymous said...

Hmm, interestng and very Matrix. Maybe, in time we will learn to use our brain capacity to the full and simply step into the next dimension by choice. This sort of hovers around ESP a bit too don't you think. I had a few "Third eye" experiences visiting the tombs in the WWII bombers alcove in St Paul's,London about 12 years ago. So vivid I remember every detail today. You would be hard pressed to convince me they were not real. Also at other times, but too many to mention here.

Winnie said...

That pulsing vortex....reminds me of a few high school..daze.
Some one always had a poster you had to stare at..
Well you know!!!!LOL

QUASAR9 said...

Wow Aggie, not you've really got my attention. Tell me more - In the midnight hour "I want more, more, more ..."

PS - Illusions or images created in the mind are 'physical' too even if they be not real or unreal. However I'm interested in events under gas or 'meditation' where people have experienced hovering above the room and seeing the body below - whether imasginary or surreal, some people have the OBEs for real that the virtual OBE is trying to recreate with video and visual aids

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Winnie, yes they are a throw back from the sixties and the psychodelic age with people experimenting with LSD or mescal or magic mushrooms or simply experiment with spirograps and art.
But it is how the eyes and mind try to interpret what we see outside inside our heads, that makes it xtra interesting. How we see movement where there is none.

trinitystar said...

Quasar,
I used to have these out of body experiences as a child ... being directly under the ceiling and not understanding what I am doing there. Then I forgot about the experiences. The one that seemed to change my life was one of coming out ... just the near death experiences ... seeing the light ... so bright and beautiful. And suddenly being projected back with a jerk.
Since then I occasionally am able to steer myself out through the window and fly.
Only those that have had the experience knows what it is like. One cannot convince others nor can one explain or understand it oneself.
No drug taking, no drink induced these experiences.
:o)

Shimmerrings said...

Hi Quasar... this is coincidental. I just read an article, today, in a local newspaper, about the same experiment you are speaking of. Thanks for the info, yours was much more in depth than the small bit which I read. I've had some experience with an OBE. I didn't know what was happening, of course, at the time. Have been intrigued by the so-called 'mystical' ever since. But, what we sometimes deem as mystical is really not that as mystical as we may think.

Anonymous said...

More, more more huh?
My tale would be too long to post in here I think. Anyway, from the sounds of it, your area of interest was not quite what happened to me. It was definitely not OBE. The best (and briefest) way of describing it that I can, is a third eye on the inside of your mind, as if a large video screen was up on the inside of your forehead and showing a movie at the same time as you could see with your own two eyes and walk about in the real world. but I was able to interact/speak with the people in this world also, as if it were a real place. Not a great explanation but all I can give really. As if you had stepped straight into a time warp. Weird and very, very unexpected. Needless to say I was freaked out and didn't hang about long.

Gill said...

Q~
I have had these several times.
Not recently, though.
Years ago, I had distinctive episodes where I left my body to travel astrally or what have you. I went to Egypt once, and spoke with golden aliens in one of the chamber tunnels that lines up with the stars in Pleides..I left my leather jacket in the pyramid and Thoth handed it back to me.
K...
Then.. uh, still with me? I had another one where I was walking in downtown Toronto looking for something. A sage in the middle of the road told me some secrets of life, gave me a glimpse into my future.
And then, last but not least...still here Q?
Okay, then.. Lastly I went out of body one night and stayed in my own room. I apparently had not sought "help" and tried to do it alone. Alone meaning, without guidance, right. So! The room was like molasses, air was so thick it was hard for me to move, had I a body. But I was just consciousness so I couldn't move very fast. The other two times I went so fast I was there instantaneously. But that last time, I felt myself crawling out of my body and it was like gravity was so strong, I could barely do it.
Now tell me, how can consciousness be weighed down, and have trouble moving.
Weird enough for ya?
If you don't comment again, I'll understand! LOL
xo
Blue

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Trinity Star,
well I'm not quite into near death experiences ike in flatliners,
but the Peter Pan and tinkerbell vatiety.
Of course there is much imagination generated in our lucid dreams, when we are in the sleep and near awake state.
But the test would be being put to sleep, wheeled into a room as if you are being wheeled into an operating theatre - and being able to describe the conversation and actions of people in the room as if you were 'observing' them from above.
Most people don't have the time to explore their imagination or the dream state, since they are too busy or cluttered and tied down with their physical reality state. Thanks for sharing.

QUASAR9 said...

Hi shimmerings, I'm not looking for the mystical or experience of visions and free flowing imagination, but rather the unexplained. Being able to recount events people and conversations in the physical plane in RealTime.
Thanks for sharing.

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Aggie, that is different
Like a film director or camera man being able to focus on the scene he is trying to direct or record.

More extra dimensional and folding spacetime, than I'm looking for, being able to feel happenings from some previous time. I get those too when you walk into some historical places, and get some sense of deja vu. Of course hey could all be our overactive imagination.

I'm looking for something more testable, the being asleep, but being able to recall people and events (in the physical plane) as the goings on in an operating theatre - without any need for the surgical intervention - of course.

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Indigo, didn't expect any less from you. Of course to differentiate from free flowing imagination or real 'out of body experiences' we would have to revisit these places to see if they are as you describe.
Notwithstanding of course that in modern life: television, movies and even reading can feed our subconscious with images we can later replay.

But hey you are certainly someone I would enjoy astral ravelling with

The other two times I went so fast I was there instantaneously. But that last time, I felt myself crawling out of my body and it was like gravity was so strong, I could barely do it. Now tell me, how can consciousness be weighed down, and have trouble moving. Weird enough for ya?

Not weird at all Blue, that is exactly how we stay in our body or are held in our brain (our body) otherwise we would certainly leave our body behind, our out of body experiences would become permanent.
So much is done in disproving that anything other than the 'real' world exists, that the human mind is cowed into shrinking from exploring these very possibilities and abilities. They were common place in earlier traditions, where lifes were less cluttered with daily and physical events.
Feel free to expand on the events or narrate more. Thanks for sharing.

Unknown said...

I have been under general anesthesia. and that floating feeling is amazing...but so fleeting. You're out too fast!

Gill said...

I'm back. One of my fave subjects since I use dream incubation and lucidity techniques all the time to try to find answers to things or to just bugger about.
I was the subject matter in a book written on experiences where people meet God, in dreamstate...my dream was one of many used, they expanded on it in the book. Alex Lukeman, was the author. The book was something about "Beyond the Veil...Tales from the other side" or something like that. I am on page 98. I remember the page number but not the name of the book. Numbers stick with me. I would recognize the book, if I saw it.
Anyway..about my experiences.
One was in dreamstate, the other two, awake. So, yes, you are quite right about the dreaming OBE being influenced by 'free flowing imagination'. I don't discount that possibility. But, I believe we are programmed with archetypes, and such,,,words escape me sometimes I find it hard to describe. But shapes, numbers, and "types" are preprogrammed. So, pyramids yes are part of our collective consciousness, but the Eygyptian gods that were within the chambers...they weren't something I had considered until after I had the experience. I must have seen them. I must have viewed pictures of them...so they would have been imprinted at some point onto my memory chip! Hee hee But, my love of Egypt and fascination with their ancient culture came after the experience, as a direct result of my experience.
Rambling!
Sorry Q. But you said I could!
Anyways. The time I found it difficult to leave my body. I was in the room. I could "feel" things. I still had sensation, and such, just minus the physical body. I couldn't see my hand or anything in front of my face though, however. It was like a "layer" of myself came off, and I was separated from my physical self, like the skin of an onion has layers right!? The physical self being the core of the onion, and then many layers on top, like emotional, mental, spiritual?
I felt frustrated. Then I worried I wouldn't be able to rejoin my body; so I willed myself back across the room and "crawled back in". Like you would crawl into a sleeping bag.
Later I saw a psychic, she told me about the events before I could ask her. She told me I was very powerful. I told her we all are. She just smiled. Then she told me that I need to learn more about it, because the time I went on my own, I had neglected to get assistance from beyond the veil. Then she warned me never to try it again, because I could see things I wouldn't want to see. I didn't ask her to elaborate, I figured my imagination was vivid enough.
Okay...if I think of anything else scientific to add. Or anything scientific period, LOL, I'll be back.
I love this subject. I know there is more than meets the eye out there. I plan to go again.
Hey, maybe this detox will lighten me up enough.
Cheers! Q, have a great Monday.
xo
Blue

QUASAR9 said...

Aaah Random, the floating feeling
doesn't have to be fleeting.
Of course before surgery they usually like to make sure you are out cold, unless it is one of the modern surgeries where they eant to awake so they give you an epidural.

But before when they only used gas, there used to be many more people had that floating feeling, and for longer, some not succumbing to a deeper level of slumber or sleep.

QUASAR9 said...

lol Indigo,
people can accept watching five or twenty five different channels of tv in the same room. People can accept listening to different radio tunes on their i-pod, or talking to someone different on their mobile phone when travelling on the train or on a jet plane

They accept these because they are 'real' - measurably (and chargeably) real ... different frequencies and wavelengths all around us.

Yet there is still a much more subtle field or fields.

I'm interested in finding that verifiable state where people put to sleep can still be aware of whar is going on - not just sounds, but visual as seen floating from above.

Of course science disproved there was such a thing as a soul, when they could measure or observe nothing departing the body - but that was long before we could detect neutrinos et al.

As to astral travel or astral projection, that's another whole realm. For those who can do it, it must be a magical experience, but for the majority dismissable as dreaming or a vivid imagination.

I'm more interested in showing that there is a part of us that can hover over our physical self. That there is more to us than that physical self. That death of the body is nothing to be feared, that departing the body is nothing to be feared. Not that I expect a Nobel Prize or to be popular in certain 'religious' circles, but I see no point to endless suffering, nor irrational fear of death - if it is simply a passing to another state. Rather pass in my own time, than lose faith or grow bitter and twisted so to speak. Of course people will always fear what awaits them on the other side.

And I repeat astral travel I'd certainly love to do with someone like you, though it may be so good we no longer feel the need to return to take up the bodies - oops better leave a note for the kid. And no I do not fear freddie krugger or demons, they are really powerless on the other side, except of course to those on who they already have a hold.

Blue, You can rant as much as you like at my place, I'll have to hunt for that book.

Shimmerrings said...

Hmmm...

QUASAR9 said...

lol shimmerings,
I've just been reading over at your place. What will you have me say

Gill said...

Q~!
Okay, well said. I shall look into said Neutrinos. Et Al. LOL!
Well, here is my take;
All is consciousness. Light and particles of light make up all we see, all things. Quantum-ly speaking we take up barely any room at all, space is the majority of...what is around. So, what is that space. Consciousness. The fabric of space/time is pure consciousness, part of a greater whole. Greater whole of what I don't know.
Abraham-Hicks channel "beings of light" and they teach that we are here to experience contrast. All is one, and one is all. So, we break up into our various experiences, you are you and I am I, but that is in order to experience the lesson.
Well well, Jerry and Ester Hicks write some pretty cool books. You may like them, although they are not science based. I feel personally that the only true intelligence is intuition. Those needing proof don't trust their gut. Ayurveda teaches that the true brain, is in the stomach. Hence butterflies. Hence "gut feeling". Hence "gut reaction".
The brain is simply the motherboard, the processor is in the gut.
Weird, I know. I keep this info mostly to myself. Unless discussion is happening on the subject. I walk around observing, testing, taking mental notes. Have done all my life.
Get this Q~I know you have heard of chakras, well there are seven bodies too right. Google the damn stuff it's there! ;)
I don't need proof. You don't either, but perhaps your ego does.
Death is but another entrance into the eternal.
Inevitability of death. Sure to cause a few anxiety attacks. That is why living in the NOW is so important. It inevitably postpones death.
xo
Blue!
You know I'll be back...puttin the kettle on for tea.

Shimmerrings said...

Quasar, I've had like two or three experiences with OBEs, subject to my own interpretation of what they were, I suppose. All of my experiences somehow get thrown into a mosh pot of mystical experience. But, what I have finally come to terms with, of my own experiences, is that these things occur frequently, with many people, so nothing unusual going on, it would seem. Though I still have great interest in these things, they don't seem quite as important in my life, or at least I've stopped chasing them. Still quite interested. But, these things occur, randomly, in their own time, I've discovered of myself. Mine were during sleeping hours, or semi-lucid states, soon after dozing off. I did view myself, from up above, the first time. I saw my body sleeping and was trying to wake my partner, would could not move... nor did I see myself move, from my view from above. The second time, was in a dreamstate, and I was experiencing rapid acceleration, turning much like a kaleidescope, as I zoomed through walls... and into the outer reaches. The enertia was great. I learned, on that one, that there is nothing to fear and that I have total control. The third one was a burst of quick starts and stops, as my etherical self was trying to leave the body, but kept getting jolted back in. I can vividly remember the sound, though is hard to describe. I believe that we do exist, outside of the body, and that the body is the clay that binds us to the earth.

Winnie said...

Everyones posts!!
WOW...
A lot of different experiences..so facinating

Ellee Seymour said...

This is a fascinating subject, I always read about it in the press. I think I would find the experience quite scary.

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Indigo
"but the Eygyptian gods that were within the chambers...they weren't something I had considered until after I had the experience. I must have seen them. I must have viewed pictures of them...so they would have been imprinted at some point onto my memory chip!"

Now that I would love to recreate. It would be hard to see unless it were simply imagination or you were really in another dimension. Mind you many hollywood films have depicted what the inner chambers.

"That is why living in the NOW is so important. It inevitably postpones death."

Of course we all live in the here and now, but we all like a bit of escapism - dreaming, daydreaming, television, reading books, looking forward to our next hols, looking forward to the new car, the new home, the new spa... we are always trying to enjoy today whilst at the same time rushing into tomorrow. We often want to be in two places at once, and sometimes we'd rather be somewhere else.

Incidentally Spas and places of leisure and rest are almost 'timeless' t seems, whether Egyptian, Roman, Canadian or even in outer space

QUASAR9 said...

Hi shimmerrings, there is no way of differentiating what is a dream, an overactive imagination or simple fantasy.

I did view myself, from up above, the first time. I saw my body sleeping and was trying to wake my partner, would could not move... nor did I see myself move, from my view from above. The second time, was in a dreamstate, and I was experiencing rapid acceleration, turning much like a kaleidescope, as I zoomed through walls... and into the outer reaches. The inertia was great. The third one was a burst of quick starts and stops, as my etherical self was trying to leave the body, but kept getting jolted back in. I believe that we do exist, outside of the body, and that the body is the clay that binds us to the earth.

These are the ones I'm interested in, but under testable conditions. Say you get wheeled into a room you've never been in, and can describe the room from above, and what the other people are saying or doing.

QUASAR9 said...

Come on Winnie, ley yourself go
You know you want to. You are just too dreamy a yummymummy never to have experienced any such.

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Elle, not scary at all.
The virtual OBE is just an extension or next generation of kids nintendo video games.

As for real OBEs, they were quite frequent under chloroform, but it unnerved surgeons to think that patients may be observing them hanging above the room during surgery, so medical science proceeded to create more powerful general anaesthetics to knock you out 'cold'

Shimmerrings said...

"For example, a surgeon could perform remote surgery, by controlling their virtual self from a different location."

I can get with the virtual game scenario, but I just can't grasp the surgery idea, just because the OBE in this experiment was illusory... and I do not believe that real OBEs are illusory. Then again, the very term OBE indicates an 'experience'... which an illusory OBE would be, just that, an experience. I wish I could experience this method of induction so as to compare. I wonder if any who were in the experiment had ever experienced one, apart from the this experiment? Perhaps it is not the soul (what is the soul, really?) that escapes, rather the consciousness.

QUASAR9 said...

shimmerrings, consciousness or soul
In the virtual OBE you do not leave your head - you fool your mind (just like in a nightmare or in a dream) into seeing thru the camera eyes on a robot looking at yourself

Not quite looking at yourself in the mirror, but looking at yourself thru the eyes of a camera behind the mirror.

Visual aids are already being used in microsurgery, these virtual OBEs would enable the surgeon to operate on a patient 'robotically' from another room - or a player to wear a visor (like jetfighter pilots) and be inside the game, rather than watching the game on a screen

mal said...

Having never experienced one, I am not sure what to make of OBE's. The empiricist in me says "look at the data" but the existentalist in me wants to believe since the reality of it implies purpose beyond the probability dance of evolution and complexed systems.

Thanks for stopping by. I did find your latest entry on nanotech in Q9 fascinating

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Mal, I can't believe you've never experienced an OBE. I guess you are not one of the ten per cent

But surely you must have had lucid and very real dreams (or nightmares) where you've been somewhere 'else' and either participated in or observed events. Simply an overactive mind or vivid imagination?

Of course you can recall people and places you've met and been to - and if you've a mind to it you can dream up people and places for a story (a lie) or fiction. But how does one explain places one has been to in our dreams or subconscious, especially if and when one has never been to those places in our 'conscious' state?

PS - I shall be moving the post on nano over to this blog

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Mike,
I've been to your very interesting bloginterviewer site. I shall be in touch soon.

mal said...

Q, there are times when I have wondered about some of the things I have "seen". Things that eerily come to pass. My youngest is the same way. Oddly, we talk about many things but seldom about that.

What I have witnessed is hours before his death, my Grandfather telling me about the people that he will be seeing again. Gramps did not know he was to die.

My brothers had the same experience when our Mom died. I woke up at 3 AM, the same time Mom passed, 1200 miles away.

Is there much to explain? Yes. I am just not sure we are equipped yet to really understand it.

gP said...

senor Q9...you have disabled commenting on the other blog? :D

QUASAR9 said...

Mal, interesting that you say we are not fully equipped to fully understand some things.
Any thoughts of an afterlife or life outside this realm have been mocked and deemed unscientific, generally by narrow minded scientists. Scientists who would presume only to believe what they can see or know - yet every day we can see there is much we do not know.
Whether it be M-Theory, strings or parallel universes from whence particles flip in and out. The only thing for sure is that the body we are in decays ashes to ashes and dust to dust. We cannot take anything material or physical with us (not even in our dreams).

QUASAR9 said...

Hi Ghost Particle,
comments should be working ok on the other side, unless haloscan was having an episode.
I do sometimes have a couple of posts without a comments section to gather the comments onto the latest post

ANNA-LYS said...

"Pillowtalk" in this environment?
Do I understand "the concept"?!?

(( hugs ))